Dr. Zeba Aziz on Revolutionizing Cancer Care in Pakistan v.2 | Dr. Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu

Dr. Zeba Aziz, a leading oncologist in Lahore with over 21 years of experience, shares her inspiring journey into medical oncology and hematology. Hosted by Dr. Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu, this conversation delves into the challenges faced by oncologists in Pakistan, the role of international collaborations, and the potential of digital technology and AI in revolutionizing cancer care.

Her Excellency Dr. Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu is the First Lady of Kebbi State, a global cancer advocate, a pediatrician, a UICC Board Member,  Founder of the Medicaid Cancer Foundation, and the Chairperson of First Ladies Against Cancer (FLAC).

Dr Bagudu is working with the state ministries of health, education, and women affairs to implement programs to sustainably improve menstrual hygiene, girl-child education, economic empowerment of women, and put an end to gender-based violence. Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu is a member of the Editorial Board of OncoDaily.

Zeba Aziz, MBBS, FCPS, ABIM is a medical oncologist 21 years of experience, she is also one of the best oncologists in Lahore with a high patient satisfaction rate. She is affiliated with the Hematologist Hameed Latif Hospital, Lahore, Pakistan. She specializes in the diagnosis and treatment of different types of cancers such as lung cancer, skin cancer, breast cancer, brain cancer, etc.
Prof. Dr. Zeba Aziz aims to promote awareness and the best treatment for cancer patients. She provides personalized cancer treatment plans for patients of all age groups. Her expertise in advanced oncology makes her one of the top certified oncologists in Lahore.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: It’s a lot of work and it’s commendable for a country that you know had so little when you started in the field and now you can have all these collaborations. Yes, so do you think that there are more policies that you would like to see in place, you know in your own understanding either globally that you can bring into Pakistan to enable you function better as an oncologist from the government?

Zeba Aziz: You know, one of the most important things is that you have to look inside and see what is happening. The governments are very unstable in low middle income countries. As a result of which, what you find is that you’ve asked them for something and by the time you get it or not get it, it’s the government has changed.

Now, should it be done on an individual level? Should it be done on an individual level or should it be done at the government level? I’m not sure.

You know, like the cancer control program is written, it is there but the implementation of that program is very minimal as far as I’m concerned and as far as people are concerned. Now, the basic concept for treating oncology should be early detection and to prevent infections which cause cancer, even air pollution which we were part of and the more I read about air pollution, the more I realized that we are living in such a polluted environment. I’m surprised that we’re all healthy for now.

So basically, I think it will have to be done at an individual and societal level but at the government level, if I say that everything should be done by the government, I’m not sure it will be done. So, it has to be our own approaches and our society’s approaches how things can be improved. That is my feeling, I can be wrong.

I’m not sure about Nigeria, what is happening there but unstable political environment is the worst thing that can happen to any country.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Definitely, the government has a role to play as indeed the private sector as well as civil society in different aspects. So, I think that a collaboration as we always hamper on and realizing our limitations and seeking for partnerships that will help us to improve the landscape is what we need.

We are seeing a lot of inputs and a lot of innovation now and maybe I want to hear a little bit about that, what the landscape is when you talk about digital technology and artificial intelligence in Pakistan and how, in your opinion, as a seasoned oncologist, how do you think the future of the use of digital technology, particularly artificial intelligence, can help us to revolutionize the cancer outcomes in your country, Pakistan?

Zeba Aziz: Artificial intelligence is very nascent here in Pakistan. Research is being done and it is more in the internal medicine area rather than medical oncology area. Having said that, in the next month when we have our annual meeting, the plenary session is on artificial intelligence in cancer.

We were, I’m not sure if the data which is being collected is all from Western Europe and United States. Will it be applicable to, yeah, will it be applicable to us or not or how do we change it for our environment? So, next month I’m looking forward to the plenary sessions and seeing what is going to happen.

Now, as far as histopathology or radiology is concerned, I’m sure that will help a lot. I was reading an article early this morning about cancer patients diet being controlled, answered by artificial intelligence and more than 80 percent of the patients were satisfied with the answers they got. So, but like if the diet would be different for us, for you will be different.

So, we’ll have to see how we can look at that. So, if it comes, I’m sure it’ll be very good, but can we, can we, when can we implement it in our part of the world? I’m not sure.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Yes, yes, I think you are absolutely spot on. The data for us in Africa, only two percent of the global pool of that is used to build the models comes from Africa and I’m sure that it will be similar. However, that puts us under pressure to contribute our own data and look for ways in which we can gather and pull together the data that we have.

I’m sure that you have thousands and millions of breast scans and mammograms and so on across all sectors of human beings in your country and it’s just to gather the data and build the models with it. So, well done for focusing on that and starting the journey and having it as a plenary session. I’m sure that you’ll be, a lot of ideas will come out of that.

Zeba Aziz: Yeah, I hope so and that they are practical and applicable to our part of the world. You know, for countries like us where our national registries, cancer registries, are very political and fragmented and then you just have the initial data, you don’t have the five-year outcome or survival data, you don’t have details. I mean, how can artificial, maybe it can, I’m not sure, but something will have to come out gradually.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: I think yes, it will come out, especially with the younger ones, they’re using it a lot more. So, one of my second to the final question would be, as a long-standing UICC member, what more would you like to see from the organization, the UICC? Is there anything more that you would like to see the organization?

I know you mentioned the fees. The fees are a problem. A lot of members from LMICS talk about that, but we also have, you know, different fee categories, of course, but unfortunately, this is the reality.

So, what more would you like to see? If you want to talk about the fees as well, that’s fine.

Zeba Aziz: No, no, I don’t want to talk about the fee. They have to work, they have a structure. I mean, I’m not complaining about the fee, it is just that it’s expensive for us.

It’s not that I’m complaining and I don’t want to complain. Because they’re doing a lot of work and it’s the money coming from the fees and other donations that makes it alive. So, nothing good comes from being free and you don’t value that.

That, I mean, UICC is doing a marvelous job and I hope it continues to do it. Like, these are common problems. Like, just the other day when we met, I started reading up on air pollution and I realized that I know next to nothing.

And how important it is for us, especially in this part of the world, to fight for it. Because the US and Europe, they already have control systems there. Like when you go to Geneva, you feel that you’re in a different world altogether.

It’s such a purified atmosphere. The air is so clean, you think there’s something wrong with the air. Because we are used to breathing polluted air.

And they are doing a lot of other work also. And I think that what UICC is doing, it is contributing to global development of various countries. And every country which needs something goes to UICC and gets its part.

Like, I mean, whatever you need, you get it. Something or the other is happening, either WHO or UICC. So, I think it’s a very good development.

I think I’m very happy that we are a member of UICC and we can see so much things which we normally wouldn’t focus on or find out.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Even for the ability to mobilize and bring together members from different parts of the world, you and I…

Zeba Aziz: Just like today, just like today. Yes, yes. Yeah, I mean, that is the beauty of having an international player and learning what is happening.

And probably then inviting you guys to things which you would be interested in, inviting me to things I would ask to be interested in. So, I think it’s wonderful. And I think UICC is a great platform for it.

I mean, we wouldn’t be able to do it alone.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Okay, that’s fantastic to hear. Thank you for that. And the last one is any final thoughts, famous quotes, anything you want to round up with?

Zeba Aziz: I don’t have a famous quote. I’m just a very ordinary physician. I’m just saying that I’m happy with what has been achieved.

And for women, I feel that, yes, move forward, but there are a lot of sacrifices which we give along the way. Sacrifices from our families, from our friends, from us. Also, you don’t have time to think about yourself.

I’m not sure about you, but I don’t have time to think. It’s very, very natural. Hardly, hardly.

But I’ve been happy with what I’ve done, and I’m very satisfied with what I’ve achieved. And I pray to God every day, and I say, thank you, Allah, for what you’ve done.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Yes, fantastic. That’s great. And you did, indeed, you do have a lot to be proud of.

And I’m sure that you’re mentoring a lot of younger people.

Zeba Aziz: Yeah, a lot of young applicants who are mentoring, and I’m happy because they’re going places and doing well.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: They’re going places as well. Thank you so much. I just need to say, united against cancer, so that when we do the interviews, we’re going to put together everybody.

So just that sentence, united against cancer.

Zeba Aziz: Yes, united against cancer. Yes. Yes, that’s a nice one.

Zainab Shinkafi-Bagudu: Well, thank you, Ziba.

Zeba Aziz: Thank you.